A tale of caution

[Natasha Smith]

Hello Natasha

Just thought I would highlight a copule of points that you have made and hope the added information helps.



Leather should always be cleaned with water based products and water is essential for the ongoing maintenance of all leather. Modern Leather needs rehydration rather than treating with oils and waxes and 'feeding' should be left firmly in the saddle industry where it belongs. Trying to add oils and waxes (natural or otherwise) to modern finished leather is not only impossible but can cause problems with the finish as dirt and body oils cling to the surface as the products have no where to go. Any cleaner who follows this method is certainly not up to date with modern leather and cleaning processes and could potentially by causing problems for their customer at a later date.



Grading of leather means differnet things to different people so cannot be used as a general term. Grading at the tannery sorts the leathers into those with little or no markings (these would bIe used for aniline style leathers and some full grain pigments) and those with many markings that will require correcting and coating to disguise the damage.
Grading by the retailer is usually just a price point and varies from shop to shop so is no useful reference point for the cleaner other than the higher the price paid generally speaking the better the quality the leather. However top quality leather can still be Aniline style, Micropigment or Full Grain Pigment coated. Leather identification (5 step process including microscope test) is crucial together with the correct selection of products and method to achieve the best results. An understanding of potential problems such as dye transfer and micro cracking of pigment is also useful to help understand why things may not be a simple cleaning process.

If you need any further information or help please let us know as that is what we are here for. We also run training courses if you are interested in more information.
Regards
Judyb

Hi Judy

Thanks for your comments, I do not do the cleaning and perhaps there is confusion by the terms i may have used in my original comment. I do know that the methods we are applying to 'real' leather and other versions by our trained upholstery cleaners they are having brilliant results and customers are always delighted.

I do believe that a lot has been misread into my comments by parties on the forum. For example the comment about water has gone beyond ridiculous! It has become very much misconstrued.

We are not aware of your product range but we would be happy if you wanted to send information.

I am sorry if my original comment lead to any confusion. I do not doubt the abilities or results of our company and stand by the methods taught by the NCCA and Prochem.

 

[Joe Hatton]

Here we are Natasha, the link to LTT website

http://www.lttsolutions.co.uk/ the prices I think are those to the public and not to the trade.

Arguably the best leather cleaning products available in the uk. Many of the carpet cleaners on this forum will have been on a LTT training course and use their products, and very good they are too.

 

[Judy Bass]

The term real leather can be quite misleading as even corrected grain, pigment coated leather is still real leather. I will send you details of our products and training. Most people who use our products have moved over from the big suppliers and been surprised that much better results are achievable.

Thanks Joe for your kind comments - the link is for our consumer site and any trade enquiries should be made direct to us. We will be integrating the trade products to our new site shortly.
Judyb

 

[Natasha Smith]

I realise at the end of the day you are promoting your own products or services. If you have any query about the NCCA training I suggest that you contact the NCCA technical department.

As far as our company is concerned you may like to look at our Gallery picture http://www.martinscleaning.co.uk/about-us/gallery/ which will confirm that our staff are cleaning leather correctly. Everything is right about this before and after picture cleaned by hand and with skill.

Also have a look at this page http://www.ncca.co.uk/leather_cleaning.php

Judy it might be useful if you contact the NCCA because you may find that you could offer your training courses (assuming you do not already). You may find that your products and opinion are appreciated by the NCCA however having said this I do note that you have NCCA within your signature so are you already in association with them?

 

[Natasha Smith]

Did the forum just chuck off my links showing leather conditioners available in the market place - oh dear!!

 

[Natasha Smith]

I am very confused by this forum, there are leather conditioners available in the market place for purchase. Yet you condone the term leather conditioner, albeit they are not the LTT products but then I believe you should also respect others in the market place even when you sell your own and if you are confident then there is no reason for moderators to continue removing my comments made about the subject of another supplier.

 

[John Bolton]

Natasha,

No, the forum nor any of its moderators did not "....just chuck off my links showing leather conditioners".

So-called leather conditioners are available on the market, as are many other worthless products of many types.

LTT do not sell leather conditioners, nor do they sell snake oil.

But they do offer they most advance training in leather cleaning and restoration available in this country.

 

[Steve Porter]

Hi Natasha
I admit it, it was me the last time
When we know that a product is either dangerous & or damaging to leather in some form, the link will be removed!
The last one you posted may seemingly be ok for 1 maybe 2 cleans but enentually the damage that has already been caused WILL surface.
Many leather cleaning products available on the open market are unsafe & often for many differant reasons. I believe that Kleeneeze were selling a 3in1 leather product that was seriously dangerous to leather.
There really are only 2 companies who have respect for their ranges of leather products within the industry, LTT & Furniture clinic. Judy is very well respected in her chosen field & quite the restoration guru nationally.
My wife completed the LTT Leather cleaning/ restoration cours a few years ago, yes it was bias toward LTT products but then when they are so well respected & safe & the training was 100 times better than the NCCA (said my wife) it's daft not to train to the highest level, which enabled us to be as good as we are.

 

[Jim Neal]

Oh Lord

 

[Natasha Smith]

Did the forum just chuck off my links showing leather conditioners available in the market place - oh dear!!

Funny that - the link that was on this forum thread has been removed

 

[Natasha Smith]

Hi Natasha
I admit it, it was me the last time
When we know that a product is either dangerous & or damaging to leather in some form, the link will be removed!
The last one you posted may seemingly be ok for 1 maybe 2 cleans but enentually the damagethat has already been caused WILL surface.
Manyleather cleaning products available on the open market are unsafe & often for many differant reasons. I believe that Kleeneeze were selling a 3in1 leather product that was seriously dangerous to leather.
There really are only 2 companies who have respect for their ranges of leather products within the industry, LTT & Furniture clinic. Judy is very well respected in her chosen field & quite the restoration guru nationally.
My wife completed the LTT Leather cleaning/ restoration cours a few years ago, yes it was bias toward LTT products but then when they are so well respected & safe & the training was 100 times better than the NCCA (said my wife) it's daft not to train to the highest level, which enabled us to be as good as we are.

You are talking utter nonsense and you must have been brainwashed! The products that where linked and you have unlinked are from a reputable supplier albeit not the ones named on this forum which I can see now is a 'self promote' website which also is a dictatorial Approach to the subject.

I am happy to be open minded on the subject but I will NOT accept comments that make it seem that our company has no idea and this is utterly and completely unacceptable and comes down to one thing only 'This sites self promotion'.

Your comments are ridiculous regarding the products you have mentioned against others in the Industry - can you honestly say you have used the products available within the industry that I mentioned (now removed)?!!! I am not going to name these companies now but I do know what I am talking about and I can say your comment seems completely biased.

I have not said anything biased about Judy or her product range but it is clear that you are biased and have no respect for other products that are not listed. We have never used her products or range, I can also accept some of her comments and respect these but I dislike your approach to an open discussion which should INCLUDE THE RESPECT of other industry professionals, after all they have been here for many years - why because their products work.
Our website before and after picture tells the truth on the subject. We are going back to a client to clean a sofa for the third time - because he is delighted with the results.

 

[Judy Bass]

The problem is Natasha that even some of the big chemical producers - even though they produce leather care products - do not fully understand leather care but simply put a product on the market alongside their others.
Any site that says that natural oils need replacing in leather simply does not understand modern leather and it's cleaning or care.
Our products - produced by chemical suppliers who have been in the industry for a very long time - are fully technically supported and have been researched and tested all over the world. We have also been teaching in the UK and USA since the growth in the leather furniture market over 2 decades ago.
Call it being biased but respecting someone's knowledge is not brainwashing. We teach a fairly generic course and have used 100s of products ov the years, we know how most of them work. Our teaching is based on theory and practical and is not a product push as most other courses are. Obviously we have to use products to teach but our courses give you the knowledge and understanding to make your own choices,
Hope this helps
Judyb

 

[Natasha Smith]

Judy don't worry about having a debate with me because on Monday morning I suspect you will be having the debate with those other suppliers.

I am not suggesting that you have not researched or know what you are talking about but it is very clear that you and your buddies are using this forum as a means to reach out to the upholstery cleaners using the forum to sell your products and yours alone which makes it an unfair market place. I do not accept that you also slate the other industry experts.

The supplier I refer to is a large reputable that makes and develops their product range and has done so for years so your comment is utter rubbish.

As far as our company is concerned if you and your buddies hadn't tried to slate that then I wouldn't have minded but it's unacceptable and not professional.

 

[Judy Bass]

Sorry Natasha but which industry 'experts' have I slated? Just because a company produces a product does not make them an expert. We deal with leather and that is all so we have a great knowledge and understanding of it from every aspect. We give technical support to many of the big suppliers who have problems that need resolving.
Knowledge can be judged by the information given and when that is simply wrong (as on some of the sites you have emailed to me) we need to take steps to reeducate.
I will happily talk to any product supplier about leather and it's care.

 

[Natasha Smith]

Judy we have had various private message to and fro and you know exactly what I am saying.

I am not trying to be difficult in any way but there is a level of respect which I feel is not being shown. I do not intend replying further because we will continue to agree to disagree on the subject. I will be in contact with the suppliers next week and you can then speak directly with them and if you choose to work with them to get rid of the things you do not like then good luck.

 

[Natasha Smith]

As I said Judy by private message if you want to send over some free samples then we will happily trial them and give you our honest opinion against our current supplier.

 

[Judy Bass]

I think we have spoken to many of them over the years - I look forward to hearing from them.
Happy to speak to you about products - why not phone on Monday to discuss what you will need and what methods will be used to test.
Cheers
Judyb

 

[Steve Porter]

Natasha
On this forum it may surprise you to know that we are fairly open minded (just use the search facility & you'll find other suppliers products frequently mentioned). What I for one will not tolerate is a company, any company coming on & trying to say that a product, for example the one you linked which is a Hg product can be thought of in the same guide as a professional use & safe effective product. Period! IF your guys are "caring" for leather with this type of product then personally I fear for your clients potentially expensive suites in the long term, a picture only tells the story of what you can see & not necessarily the whole story. By using the process as described by Judy coupled with a microscope you may start to understand that leather is not just a face fibre.
I'm sorry if you think I am talking utter nonsence & have been brainwashed, clearly you have greater knowledge on professional cleaning & care related matters, have continually trained within this industry for 11 years, obviously carry internationally recognised qualifications, are a proficiant textile specialist & carry out training for many other companies?

Threats made to industry experts (or any member) such as Judy will only see you removed from this board, it is not open for discussion. Aggressively toned private messages will be dealt with in the same way.
Please take this as what it is, a wake up call. As you self admit, you are not part of the cleaning team, so why not listen to what these people are saying as their knowledge is far beyond many of us.

 

[Nick Attwood]

Lot of bad karma on the forum over the last couple of weeks!!

This was a friendly place!

 

[Tony Nash]

Still is.....