A tale of caution

[Natasha Smith]

Natasha
On this forum it may surprise you to know that we are fairly open minded (just use the search facility & you'll find other suppliers products frequently mentioned). What I for one will not tolerate is a company, any company coming on & trying to say that a product, for example the one you linked which is a Hg product can be thought of in the same guide as a professional use & safe effective product. Dangerous & not fit for professional use products will be removed, period! IF your guys are "caring" for leather with this type of product then personally I fear for your clients potentially expensive suites in the long term, a picture only tells the story of what you can see & not necessarily the whole story. By using the process as described by Judy coupled with a microscope you may start to understand that leather is not just a face fibre.
I'm sorry if you think I am talking utter nonsence & have been brainwashed, clearly you have greater knowledge on professional cleaning & care related matters, have continually trained within this industry for 11 years, obviously carry internationally recognised qualifications, are a proficiant textile specialist & carry out training for many other companies?

Threats made to indusrty experts (or any member) such as Judy will only see you removed from this board, period, it is not open for discussion. Aggressivly toned private messages will be dealt with in the same way.
Please take this as what it is, a wake up call. As you self admit, you are not part of the cleaning team, so why not listen to what these people are saying as their knowledge is far beyond many of us.

Steve I suggest that you and Prochem sort this out because it is their products that I refer, we do not make or sell them we use them and they have always worked very well for us and continue to do so.

There is no aggression it is a debate and continues to be a debate nothing more and as I have already made very clear I respect the opinions of others however I have noted there appears little respect in return towards what are valid comments. At the end of the day I believe there is no right or wrong answer, it is a matter of choice of product, I have already asked Judy for a sample.

As a company we are prepared to trial any product and see how it fairs to what we use at a given time. If you look at company's selling leather furniture you will note reference to 'real' leather 'Italian' leather then you come down to the other brands costing in the range of £150.00 etc.

What threat do you foresee, asking Judy to speak with Prochem is not a threat, it is a challenge, when Judy states clearly that conditioners should not be used and they are readily available for purchase and she believes they should no longer be in the market place and this is her vision she is only going to get that across by putting her point directly to these companies.

So are you denouncing conditioners in full, my believe is that a lot of what I have said has become very much misconstrood and misunderstood.

 

[Natasha Smith]

To all concerned I think it best that we end this here and now.

At the end of the day it comes down to personal preferrance you have yours we have ours.

 

[Joe Hatton]

We all have personal choices, and when we find something that works well as cleaning products we naturally want to tell our experiences to fellow cleaners on forums like this so they can benefit.
Personally I have used 4 leather cleaning product suppliers and I dont mind mentioning them.
Furniture Clinic, Prochem, a firm from Scotland with the name Solutions (not related with Solutions Cornwall), and LTT.
I like the Solutions (Scottish one) product, they work, though I dont know much detail about them except I bought off a tv shop and subsequently found the value for money too high (comparably). The Prochem cleaner and conditioner I used - didnt get on with it, eventually I sent it to a cleaner from another forum who did like the products - fair do's. I have done a 2 day course with Furniture Clinic some years ago and found their products ok UNTIL I tried the LTT products. Subsequently I have been on a couple of LTT seminars - one via the NCCA. Their products work and their backup, Natasha and everyone else, is second to no one in my opinion.

 

[Judy Bass]

This is what I have just responded to Natasha via email as I think it is relevant to the overall conversation.

We speak to everyone on a regular basis about 'conditioners' etc and have been leading the way for the past decade in getting the mindset changed. Whoever taught you to 'condition' modern leather furniture with waxes, oils etc is simpy wrong and just selling a product. If you call this being 'ripped off' then that is your choice - we prefer people to use products that actually do something positive to help the customer rather than cause potential problems later.
Companies that supply 'conditioners' for modern leathers are selling products that not only are unnecessary but can in some cases (not all) cause problems and as a professional cleaner we need to understand these and what can be done as an alternative. Simply taking a bottle off a shelf marked leather cleaner is a disaster waiting to happen if used on the wrong type of finish or used in the wrong way or produced by people with little knowledge or understanding of the nature of modern leather finishes.
Unfortunately there are too many people willing to put products on the market for unsuspecting consumers (and technicians) it is up to the cleaning professionals to keep up to date with modern leathers and the best way of caring for them in order to re educate the public about the problems with off the shelf products. If the 'professional' cleaner is not correctly informed then how can we expect the public to be.
Using basic cleaners and 'coditioners' is not a particularly effective way of cleaning.
I look forward to your call on Monday.

An industry that has changed so much over the last 2 decades needs people with updated knowledge and products to deal with the many problems that occur not only in the consumer world but in the cleaning industry too. Cleaners need to be able to recognise problems when they see them and not expect a product alone to solve it. There is no magic in the industry (although some people seem to constantly search for it) it is simply having the correct knowledge to work out solutions to problems - this is where we can help. Basic cleaning and protecting are often all that is required but not always and cleaners often encounter problems that they have not come across before - we can help with these and is what I do on a daily basis.

Hope this helps
Judyb

 

[Natasha Smith]

Thank you Joe that is exactly my point. We all have opinions and they should all be respected.

We like the Prochem products and do not intend changing at the moment unless we found something that was equally as good when it comes down to stock control.

We cannot comment on the LTT products we have never used them, our only offer was that we are willing to try a sample. Our only other comment is that if you like something and your client is happy then why would you change your cleaning methods or products, at the end of the day it is about client satisfaction and the technicians preferrance. There is no right or wrong answer.

 

[Natasha Smith]

This is what I have just responded to Natasha via email as I think it is relevant to the overall conversation.



An industry that has changed so much over the last 2 decades needs people with updated knowledge and products to deal with the many problems that occur not only in the consumer world but in the cleaning industry too. Cleaners need to be able to recognise problems when they see them and not expect a product alone to solve it. There is no magic in the industry (although some people seem to constantly search for it) it is simply having the correct knowledge to work out solutions to problems - this is where we can help. Basic cleaning and protecting are often all that is required but not always and cleaners often encounter problems that they have not come across before - we can help with these and is what I do on a daily basis.

Hope this helps
Judyb

That's why everything is first pre-inspected Judy, nothing is ever taken for granted.

 

[Jim Neal]

Natasha,

I think the problem is thus... it seems that you joined this forum and immediately began making posts with some very forthright views on various subjects. That's no problem, we all have our own opinions

But forums are a bit like work places or social clubs... there is a culture that exists within them. When new members arrive, sometimes they don't quite pick up on the culture and can rub people up the wrong way through their words and actions.

It's very clear that you weren't previously aware of Judy or LTT; however, the majority of people using this forum and others know and respect Judy and LTT as being amongst the leading experts in leather care.

Regarding self-promotion: As I think you may have realised, Cleantalk is subsidised by Solution (Cornwall) Ltd, who trade through their "World of Clean" website. Nick Vousden-White is the owner, and it has been his policy for a very long time not to tolerate out-and-out promotion of other suppliers' products. I personally can understand that, as he pays for the upkeep of this forum. You agreed to this in the terms and conditions when you joined the forum.

HOWEVER, it is very plain to see that many other suppliers' products DO come up in conversation... when there is a genuine conversation about, for example, a certain type of problem and suggested methods of solving them. It's just the blatant advertising of other suppliers' goods that isn't welcome.

You wouldn't send your vans out with a competitor's logo and phone number on

In order to provide genuine expert help and guidance through the forum, Nick has accepted a couple of specialist suppliers to look after certain areas - LTT look after leather and Nu Life the hard floor area. The same policy must also apply to these areas, in terms of promoting other suppliers goods.

It's a fine line to tread, and a very tricky thing to moderate - you have to be fair but let people know when they've crossed the line.

I personally enjoy it when people have plenty to say, and get discussions going. It dilutes my ramblings down as much as anything

We have to keep things on the right track. I have nothing against you personally and would not want to see anyone "hounded out" from here, or any other forum for that matter, because it's not fair.

All I'll say is, we are born with two ears and one mouth.

Or in the case of the internet, two eyes and one keyboard

 

[Ian Harman]

Nicely put Jim and - for you - quite brief!!

 

[Jim Neal]

Cheeky ****!!!!!​

 

[Ian Harman]

Come now Jim - it was just to good an opportunity to let it go by

 

[John Bolton]

Natasha,

I strongly suggest that you would do better to learn from those on here who are both trained and experienced in the various disciplines within our industry than to talk down to them.

I do not Know what level of training you have attained but your posts suggest that it is minimal or poorly conducted.

If you wish to participate and learn you are welcome to continue your membership but to continue to argue with well respected experts in their field from a position of relative ignorance does nothing to enhance your position within this community.

 

[Joe Hatton]

Our only other comment is that if you like something and your client is happy then why would you change your cleaning methods or products, at the end of the day it is about client satisfaction and the technicians preferrance. There is no right or wrong answer.

Only when you find something that gives a benefit to make you want to change.

You know you cant bury your head in the sand - time moves on and so does technology.

I know carpet cleaners who swear by the product they are using - because they been using it for the last 10 years (or whatever), they like it, their customers are satisfied with the results (they dont know there may be something that is better for their carpets), so thats it, it just rolls on and on and on.....
Over the 20 years I have been in the cleaning business, and particularly the last 7 years that I have seriously got into carpet cleaning I have changed my method of cleaning and cleaning products I use.
Three years ago I found M-Power (and an other colloidal cleaner), championed it on the forum for the benefit of other c/cleaners, (got slagged off a lot because of that too).
Then comes along SPM. That is now my cleaner of choice, though M_Power is still on my van and I do use it depending on the circumstance.
Point is, and at my age particularly, it would be easy for me to say "I'm happy with what product I use, I'll stick with it now", but I always want the best for the client and will change, particularly if there are benefits to me too.

Going back to leather, a very common leather is the sealed leather - a protective "film" on top of the leather. Spill water on it and it just stays there for yonks of time - you probably know this type of leather.
No point in putting a leather conditioner on this as you cant get to the leather. A good water based cleaning product is the order of the day.

If in your business you want the very best for your clients, I would sincerely suggest you get your technicians on a LTT course. and no - I have no affiliation to LTT, yes I have met Judy a couple of times and her partner Andy, who sadly is no longer with us, and the knowledge that business has is worth tapping into in (in my opinion).

 

[Natasha Smith]

Natasha,

I strongly suggest that you would do better to learn from those on here who are both trained and experienced in the various disciplines within our industry than to talk down to them.

I do not Know what level of training you have attained but your posts suggest that it is minimal or poorly conducted.

If you wish to participate and learn you are welcome to continue your membership but to continue to argue with well respected experts in their field from a position of relative ignorance does nothing to enhance your position within this community.

This again is an arrogant and horrible quote and this shows the level of immaturity within the forum and as so-called business professionals you all ought to go and grown up!

You are very rude and this is not acceptable and this is exactly stirring up trouble rather than let it mellow where it belongs!!!

 

[Tony Nash]

Jim, I couldn't have said that any better.

I've not been involved in this thread, but has Jim as just paved the way so well to make a point, I will just quickly say that, without ever having met Judy, let alone even mentioning her name, it isn't hard to spot that she is an excellent ambassador for her trade / craft etc.

Judy herself is very definitely worthy of that particular word being mentioned....' RESPECT '.

 

[Joe Hatton]

Nicely put Jim and - for you - quite brief!!

That was brief?

 

[Natasha Smith]

You a close knit bunch obviously, there are comments that are not welcome about me and our company and the moderators must take these on board!

I see a unity of forces here and at least Joe has the sense to mellow this down too.

Perhaps we could all go and play in the snow instead!!!

 

[John Bolton]

This again is an arrogant and horrible quote and this shows the level of immaturity within the forum and as so-called business professionals you all ought to go and grown up!

You are very rude and this is not acceptable and this is exactly stirring up trouble rather than let it mellow where it belongs!!!

Natasha,

It is a cautionary message from a site administrator. Take heed!

It is you that will not "let it mellow" and are displaying immaturity, and in the process causing irritation to a number of members. But we are a forgiving bunch so moderate your dogmatic preaching and you will gain acceptance.

 

[Jim Neal]

I'm gonna come over there and bang your heads together in a minute!!!!!

 

[Natasha Smith]

Natasha,

It is a cautionary message from a site administrator. Take heed!

It is you that will not "let it mellow" and are displaying immaturity, and in the process causing irritation to a number of members. But we are a forgiving bunch so moderate your dogmatic preaching and you will gain acceptance.

John I was not accepted from day one. I was outraged to find quotes relating to our company in a previous thread without us even involved.

I think that the terms and conditions should state that unless you use the products in full on the forum that don't join! That's what it is all about nothing more or less. It's about company and product promotion. That's fine but it would be better to build a full website to get your views across or put a moderation where posts are read before they go live. I believe a lot of comments could then have been avoided.

Jim Neal has said the most sensible statement today, and yes we all individual and have different views, there is such a thing as freedom of speak.

Carry on and gang up on me why don't you all because that is the immaturity I refer to. As I said weeks ago, drop it and early today I again said enough was enough

I know someone is desperate for a final word but it won't happen, all I can ask for is that you realise that I am not here to cause any upset as I've said time and again but I will not be bullied either!

 

[Natasha Smith]

I'm gonna come over there and bang your heads together in a minute!!!!!

As I said perhaps we should all go and play in the snow instead although ours has almost melted!